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Why Can’t We Agree on what the Bible Says About Homosexuality?

Why Can’t We Agree on what the Bible Says About Homosexuality?

 

If there is one issue that divides Christians, perhaps more than any other, it is that of homosexuality and same-sex marriage. It’s a hot topic these days and yet, we can’t seem to agree on what the Bible says about it. Why?

 

A Case in Point

During the 2013 Australian Federal election campaign, a good friend of mine Matt Prater confronted the then Prime Minister Kevin Rudd (a professing Christian) about why he had changed his stance and was now promoting same-sex marriage.  Here is the video clip:

 

That little exchange right there puts the divide between so-called “evangelical christians” and “liberal Christians” pretty much in a nutshell.

Now let me state my position, before I discuss the reason for the divide. I fall very clearly in the evangelical camp on the question of same-sex marriage. I take what the Bible says about homosexuality literally. Agree with me. Don’t agree with me. That’s where I’m at.

My concern is that of those who take that same position – and there are many – a great proportion are unable to answer Kevin Rudd’s “logic” (which is backed by very loud applause from much of the general population who have swallowed, hook, line and sinker, the aggressive rhetoric of the gay lobby over the past decade and more).  

So – why can’t Christians agree?

 

What Does the Bible Say to Us Today?

There is generally very little debate over what the various books of the Bible (written as they were over a period of around 1,500 years) were meant to the say to the people to whom they were written, at the time that they were written. That part of the interpretive process is known as “exegesis”. I see some, but not a lot of debate, in the area of exegesis.

Where the real conflict comes in, is in the process of understanding what those texts are meant to say to us today, given the changes in culture, in the role of women, in levels of education, in perceptions of individual human rights and so on. That part of the interpretive process is known as “hermeneutics” – what if anything is God saying through that particular passage to you and me, here and now, given the tectonic shifts in culture since it was written?

That’s where the real conflict lies – although most of the combatants are completely unaware of it.

 

A Moral Trajectory

Fact: when it comes to questions of morality – morality is, after all, at the heart of the debate here – the Bible is hardly static in many areas.

Take for instance, the question of marriage. In the earliest Biblical times, polygamy was (apparently) quite acceptable to God. It first appears in Genesis 4:19–25 and then many times after. God told King Solomon not to accumulate for himself too many wives (Deuteronomy 17:17) and yet he amassed a thousand of them (1 Kings 11:3).  

Yet, by the time of the New Testament a thousand or so years later, it seems that whilst polygamy was still practiced by some (see this article) the qualifications for leadership in the Christian church were that a man be married to only one wife (1 Timothy 3:2,12). This represents a clear change in morality (what’s acceptable and what’s not)  from one period of Biblical history to the next.

On the question of divorce, another change – this time, involving Jesus. In Deuteronomy 24:1-4 we see that the law (God’s law) permitted divorce.  Yet much later, Jesus forbids it except in very limited circumstances (Matthew 19:1-8). 

Take for instance the contrast between this command from God for what you and I would today call ethnic cleansing (Numbers 31:1-18) to Jesus’ reaction against violence (Luke 22:47-53).

Those are just three examples. There are quite a few more when it comes to drawing the line between what is morally acceptable and what isn’t.

(See also my earlier post, which includes the video scene from the series The West Wing where President Bartlett tears into a conservative Christian talk show host, with many more examples.)  

So to many people – Christian and non-Christian alike – it seems as though the Bible follows a moral trajectory – from the barbaric and uncivilised, to the more mature and civilised.

And so, many will argue, it is quite evident that as human culture and behaviour has continued become more civilised in the two thousand or so years since the last book of the Bible was written, that moral trajectory should very obviously continue.

For example, people used to justify racism using the Bible. Now fortunately, we have grown and learned that this is not acceptable. People cannot choose their race or skin colour – discrimination based on race is now unacceptable.  

 

So Why Isn’t the Same True of Homosexuality?

And so, today, many will argue that given the moral trajectory of the Bible and given that it is self-evident that (a) that trajectory should rightly continue as society learns and becomes more civilised, and (b) people can’t choose their sexual orientation (this is not my position, I am simply stating theirs), evangelical, “ultra-conservative” Christians are being myopic and bigoted in discriminating against those whose sexual orientation is different from the so-called “norm” through – what they consider – no fault of their own.

And even if sexual orientation is a lifestyle choice rather than a genetic predisposition, why shouldn’t two consenting adults be allowed to express their “love” for one another as they choose, without the religious morality police (who are at best on shaky ground) intruding into their bedrooms?

So the argument goes. And with so much vitriolic, emotional rhetoric from both sides of this divide (Rudd’s “spirited” position is a good example of that) instead of us thinking through our positions, many well-meaning, Bible-believing, Christ-following Christians simply state, in defence of their position on homosexuality and same-sex marriage: because the Bible says so.

But to a world that, by and large, has never read the Bible and  is therefore pretty much ignorant of what it says, that position simply doesn’t stack up.

Paul encourages us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds not by the removing of our minds! (Romans 12:2)

So in my  opinion, if we are to take the position that homosexuality is a sin because the Bible says so, then in today’s context in particular, we need to have thought about, understood and be able to articulate clearly, why.

That’s what my next blog post is about.


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32 Comments

  1. Wow I have read some dark stuff here. As a gay man who tried the christian ex-gay thing back in 2006, I really feel your love. Or I would if it was there. Please everyone reread all the comments and ask if this is really ok. Gays are people too. God loves. Do you ?

  2. There is this Pastor who do deliverance.He has deliverance ministry.I have see many people being delivered from this spirit of homosexuality.If you want to help your relative or yourself now ,today go on you tube and watch this ministry.TB JOSHUA Ministry.Type TB Joshua deliverance and see how he do deliverance s in the name of Jesus Christ.Demons submit to that name and he commands them to speak and say what there mission is in the body of the one possessed.That is where I learned that homosexuality is nothing other than spirits terrorizing people of God.Anyone who wants to go there needs to apply through their website and their e-mail is [email protected] .Their website is http://www.scoan.org.You can apply through the website.There are scamers if you apply somewhere else.Jesus is still alive He never said goodbye.Homosexuality is a spiritual thing and only Jesus Christ can save people from this problem.People are getting saved and Jesus is doing what He said is going to do.People need deliverance.Anything that is negative in people’s lives is caused by the master of darkness,Satan.Many people think that they are homosexuals but no,Jesus created you as a woman or man and the devil took advantage of you.You need to ask Jesus Himself people to be saved.Your souls belongs to Jesus and no body else.Let us run to Jesus today.

  3. Please we must know that the devil is deceiving the whole world.He is winning a lot of souls through this homosexuality.If you have observed that if you comment anything negative about homosexuality,you lend yourself in trouble.Us as Christians we are representatives of Jesus Christ.We should say what the bibles says.We know the tricks of the devil.Us as Christians let us not be shaken by the world because The King of Glory overcame the world.What homosexuals should know is that Jesus loves them.He is waiting for them to come to Him.If you go on you tube there is a man who was a homosexual.He said he knew what he was doing was sinning and he prayed to God asking Him to deliver him from homosexuality.He said he did not stop going to the gay club.But one day because our God is faithful and He keeps His promise.He saw two men who were evangelists coming in gay club.He heard the voice of God telling him that He had sent His evangelists to him and he should listen to what they were going to say.He said he was surprised to know that God Himself can go into Gay clubs to serve His people.Anyway he was told about the Word of God and he was served.Please God loves everybody.The problem is people picture God as a monster and yet He is a loving Father.The reason why I say this is people say what they think about gay but they go back and keep on mentioning the Bible.It is fear and everybody knows that it is sinning..The thing is Satan is behind all this and he does not want happiness for anybody.Homosexuality affects everybody the doers and relatives.People may pretend that it is right but deep down they know that is is not right.I hope God will serve all those people affected.Only Jesus has all the answers.

  4. I ask, does this make your union with your wife or husband any less valid? Do not judge others only live your life within the laws of God. Leave the rest to him. The moment I worry about everyone else’s lot I stop being concerned about my own. Live a good example and one that does not judge but accepts each with the love that Christ himself gave as an example.

  5. The problem is even some Christians don’t know what God says about homosexuality, immorality and the burning fire, gnashing teeth. ..Many think their human love is bigger than God, so it’s O.K to do what suit them, no fear of God, when we know the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. What do Christians think when Jesus says we have to pick up our own cross each day? Is it not to choose to follow His teaching and die to our oldself!?

    At the end of the day, we all have to face judgement day. Are we going to say: God, I know what you’ve said but…..

    Just pray for God’s mercy and Christians to take God seriously and pray for many souls to know Jesus.

  6. My views are strong. Love the sinner and hate the sin, pretty simple. God is a God who never changes – amen. God says to choose life!!!!
    We cannot change anyone. We can love them, take them to church continue to love them and let the WORD change them.
    My other thing is “If all professing christians” voted christian democrat we would have a christian government. God allows all things to further His Kingdom so with our support or without it He will have His way. People need to realise how the spiritual realm works as well – we have a real enemy out there!

  7. JOHN lU YOU ROCK .VERY NICE LEAD IN AND WHAT A GREAT VIDEO.

  8. “Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed were cities mentioned in the Book of Genesis and throughout the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament. The kingdoms of Sodom and Gomorrah were allied with the cities of Admah, Zeboim and Bela. These five cities, also known as the “cities of the plain”, were situated on the Jordan river plain in the southern region of the land of Canaan. The Jordan river has been compared to the garden of Eden,[Gen.13:10] being a land well-watered and green, suitable for grazing livestock.
    Sodom and Gomorrah have become synonymous with impenitent sin, and their fall with a proverbial manifestation of God’s wrath.[4][5][Jude 1:7] Sodom and Gomorrah have been used as metaphors for homosexuality …..”

    STILL today nothing will grow in this region of Sodom and Gomorrah and this is a fact…
    I am concerned for people in power who have a voice and impact on the community at large, especially Kevin Rudd. Having portray such strong views and someone so definite after some reflection he says he has had to definitely point out that homosexuality is “normal” concerns me.

    Have we matured, listened and have better quality of life since the early days of the bible???? Yes, I would agree with Bernie and his examples of how we live in a more humane society.

    Doesn’t God want us to be happy and love each of us as his own….. So why would we not listen and discourage homosexuality for the reasons and facts of what it does and can do to our lives.

    If you fell that you are born gay, it still presents hardship and conflict and acceptance divisions. It is a sin. We were born in sin but it doesn’t mean being gay is what God intends for us.

    If you change from being in a heterosexual relationship from having an unpleasant experience to justify becoming homosexual …does that change a persons life for the good of that person. It could confuse, distort and even be destructive.

    Same sex marriage…..I believe a child needs a Dad with Dad emotions and connections for a healthy upbringing….male and female brains work differently

    A child needs a Mum with Mum emotions and connections for a healthy upbringing….so two parents of the same sex lacks complete clarity for a child who is set up for confusion, and possible developmental problems

    Marriage for gay couples….sorry but I don’t agree they can call it marriage. Marriage is a sacrament in the bible for a man and a woman …….

    If we had a change, maybe a contract of same sex but not in the context of being called a married couple.

    Finally I grew up without much exposure to gay openness until I was a young adult going to school and now it is almost trendy to be gay.

    I lived for many years in Daylesford and Hepburn Springs and it is the capital of Victoria for the gay population. I have worked with gay people, have been propositioned by gay people, I have a gay nephew, my best friends daughter is gay.

    So it isn’t a case of having an easy answer and I do care for people regardless of race, sex etc but maybe if we take a page out of Gods book before we take the plunge then maybe this huge population of being gay and all its demands for acceptance and change, we might in fact need to study and learn some more of what the message is and take god seriously??????

  9. My take on this is that there are perversions in our society. Perversions should be considered abnormal. As we traverse down this slippery slope of deception by the master deceiver, we are setting ourselves up for failure. Just as abortion is murder in the name of convenience, so is Homosexuality a perversion. I have no doubt that the homosexual movement will prevail over time. And mark my words, when that happens, the next perversion will be in line to do the same thing. So who of you feel incest is normal? How about a father who marries his daughter? How about bestiality. Were does it stop. We are all wrapped up in OUR RIGHTS and not what is right in Gods eyes. We have put God in the closet and those things that had been kept in the closet came out. If you want to be gay then so be it. But dont tell me that I have to accept it as normal. And dont tell me that 2 men being married or 2 women being married is healthy for our society. Never in our history of this world that I am aware of has it been normal for 2 people of the same sex to be publicly married.
    We will be judged by our actions not by our feelings. This persona of there is no right and no wrong is utterly ridiculous. If there is no right and no wrong then the bible should be thrown away and buried. It is of no use in a society with no rules or limitations. God help us is all I can say. God will deal with this issue justly and firmly in the future.

  10. Before I received God’s Grace His Word seemed just like a lot of stories and nice sayings. Now I know different, I have seen the Light. I can fully accept homosexuality as a sin. But I therefore do not wonder why the rest of the world does not accept His Word and in fact now, in this post post modern world, actually dismisses or attacks it and its followers.

    But we are not in a ‘fight’ to win an argument, we are to proclaim the Good News (in all things but especially in this, in love) and then let God’s indwelling Holy Spirit convict those that accept His Grace, of a need for change. We can’t ‘win the argument’ and the Bible tells us that, we are to be faithful to the Gospel and what we believe. To do this we must test our motives in arguing.

    So often the question of homosexual marriage is seen as a vehicle for us to argue and to legislate what we consider to be the most important of Christian believes, without focussing on the salvation of the soul. We tell the sinner give up your sin and then come to Christ and yet He came to us whilst we were still sinners (and continue to still practice some ‘acceptable’ sins). And at the same time as Christians we do not seem to decry as loudly rampant greed and the despising of the ‘widows and orphans’ in our society and by our Governments.
    Sorry for rambling.

  11. Hi Bernie, I wonder if the debate is really about something else. And not how christians believe about gay marriage or any issue or any other issue.

    Is the real debate about whether any group of a homogenous free society can mandate a particular viewpoint on sociological or legal living arrangements?

    I see the debate in the USA within this structure. One side… views the institution of marriage as a religious and moral issue that should be congruent with the country’s laws and values. Another side views it as equality under the law in civil terms for assets and property and other legal rights. Another side takes it further and sees it as a statement of authority beyond just civil rights, in other words gay marriage would be the equal of a heterosexual marriage where procreation is possible.

    And yet another side says, what’s the big deal, everyone seems to be arguing over the vocabulary. Since marriage is a word with a long history and the denotation and connotations are clearly established as heterosexual unions for creating families by natural procreation… why don’t we leave that word alone. It’s working fine. Why not devise a new vocabulary for out times, something humans are quite adept at doing, for a “civil union”. Have a contest for new words or terms. Then any side can replace the term “civil union”, which in fact is a component for all legally marrried couples in a “Marriage”. Civil union and marriage are related but not the same. The legality of a civil union remains the same, but socially we all agree to try out some new phrases to describe civil union.

    Calling something what it is by long history and general acknowledgement is what Daniel Webster started a long time ago. Works pretty well. Why doesn’t one side or the other invent some new words and the the dictionaries can just get a bit larger.

    • Adding to Jan’s comment, the issue for me is the institution of marriage. I was hoping this institution would remain a holy union. Of course the idea of marriage has been under attack for generations now, with common law and secular unions/marriages not to mention co-habitation. These changes have infected an otherwise holy union. I guess gay marriage is simply the insane (from our biblical perspective of course) progression of the degradation of the institution. I prefer to call it something other than marriage, but it doesn’t look like that will happen in the US. As a very large investment services in MA stated, it would simply be uneccessarily expensive to delineate marriage and gay marriage from a administrative perspective. At the very least, perhaps we may call our beloved marriage “holy marriage”. Ex: I have been “holy married” for 13 years now. Maybe someone who sees this can come up with a similar word/phrase that rolls off the tongue a little easire. I’m not making fun or making light of this serious cultural change. I’m merely making sincere suggestions to let our brothers and sisters, no matter what their faith, understand why we hold up our marriages in very high regard. It may just be something that pleases our Lord while helping our brothers and sisters of alternate perspectives understand where we are coming from.

      • I concur with your comment, especially noting “perhaps we may call our beloved marriage “holy marriage”

        And the reality is, vocabulary begins with the common usage as Daniel Webster pointed out long ago. And almost any commonly used word has variations in a dictionary reflecting the different connotations.
        However, adding a descriptor modifier such as Holy or gay or civil or religious or anything else, isn’t quite the same thing. Often these are a precursor phrases signaling a sea change in the public perceptions that lead to a new re-ordering of commonly used variations of a defininition

        Some may quibble of the language side of things, but I believe it is in fact, central to the debate

  12. Bernie,
    By highlighting this issue and making it your own you have indeed help separate people from the God you and I love. I won’t tell a homosexual that they are outside of God’s love nor would I say that to anyone engaged in fornication, but that is the message that is heard when you highlight this issue behind a thinly veiled pretext of God changing or not changing His views on sexuality.

    Quietly vote for Tony Abbott if you feel this issue of the word “Marriage” is that important to you. I personally have a union with my wife blessed by God, whom we love, which is more than what society or the law calls marriage.

    Tony Abbot when asked about his sister who is in a lesbian relationship said “I love my sister.”

    On the issue of the condemnation of racism and the abolition of polygamy society and democracy had more to the changes in those areas than the good will of Christians.

    Christ said “You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:5

    My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? … James 2:1-26

    May God bless you in your persuits.

  13. Tough subject to tackle, Bernie. But a subject that affects my life every day here in the U.S.A., and I’m sure it affects many Christians today. Once you know the truth, you NEVER want to put it down, and so it is with our Christian faith and knowledge of the Lord. I do have a heart for these people however: “Love the sinner; hate the sin”. I sometimes liken homosexuality to permiscuity. It was never called an “abomination”, but sin is sin, yes? I was once myself very permiscuous (as i shorten my name a little on this blog), and I encouraged others to be likewise. Consenting young adults, right? It was my right to be as I was, and we were not hurting anyone. Perhaps I, like many alongside me, were born more permiscuous than others. Regardless, my eyes were eventually opened, and I awoke to find my behavior and the behavior of people I encouraged was sinful through and through. Perhaps a little more Christian love, with unwavering faith, may help our cultures a bit in the long run.

  14. Hi Lionel, whilst I agree with alot of what you have to say, your point regarding Kevin Rudd, just because you go to church every Sunday doesn’t doesn’t necessarily make you a christian.

  15. Thanks for this Blog Bernie – looking forward to the next one.
    I was pleased when the then PM Kevin Rudd broadcast on National Television that the New Testament is about universal love, love for your fellow man. Of course thethe main love shown in the New Testament was God having his Son die on the cross for our sins, and the main message is that Jesus is Lord as one commentator said. To remind people that it is about love also was good thing, if he could have phrased his answer better is another thing.
    .
    On homosexuality, the Bible does say that God created man and woman. We were created originally perfect but many genetic differences have occurred and been passed on through the ages. These may or may not have come from sin, but this surely does not mean that the present person whom inherits these differences is the sinner. One of these differences is homosexuality, I don’t understand it as I am not homosexual, how it happened, but as with a Christian homosexual I know they don’t chose to be homosexual, it is how they are.

    What does disturb me is how many Christians focus on “Gay Marriage” it appears in the case of Labor over their achievements or otherwise in the case of the other matters discussed on Q and A with the then PM. That many people rang the Vision radio Network where Matt Prater is an announcer to say as a consequence of Kevin Rudd’s reply they are now going to not vote Labor is concerning as they must have been happy with Labor. Those who are coalition supporters obviously were not going to vote Labor. They should remember that according to the ABC’s vote compass that the Coalition “Slightly agreed “ with Gay Marriage so they could, sadly, bring it into law at some stage (“sadly” as I maintain same sex union is not marriage it needs some other term)

    Also, sadly, I have just spent this time writing this when in the world there are more important issues for a Christian, evangelising, praying and being concerned for social justice, fair work conditions, overseas aid (now drastically reduced), and generally living the message of Jesus of hope and love and caring for other people which we as Christians should be concentrating on.

    • Hi David…just a quick reply to your comment: “sadly” as I maintain same sex union is not marriage it needs some other term

      There is another term; it’s called a civil union, legislated in 2008 to give the same legal rights as marriage.

      Changing the definition of the word marriage therefore just appears to me to be a grab for children, who are the 3rd parties who will be affected & yet have no say in this change of the ‘Marriage AND ADOPTION’ act which takes away their right to both a father and a mother.

  16. Bernie

    My problem here it the vitriol at the basis of the argument and expressed by your good friend. His was a political argument basically saying you flipflop – how can we triust you and then judged him a non christian for having his beliefs.

    My problem here is that this only holds up christians to be fools, judgemental and argumentative over things the world doesn’t understand.

    I agree the bible is clear on homosexuality as it is on many issues that can be viewed in the modern world as irrelavant such as women (particularly as women were chattels up until the 19th century).

    This doesn’t make it irellavant, it becomes our challenge to find gods journey for ourselves not some thumping truth to beat people up with AGAIN as they already know what we think. Ask a Gay person what they think of the church and stand back, they will usually tell you of of damaging church experiences some of which have obviously been criminal. Oh BTW just how many pastors know ANY gay people or what they feel or think.

    However people become gay, god still loves them just like us right thinking people (god is no repecter of persons)

    What is less clear is in a hurting damaged world where all kinds of people act out of the abuse and damage, how does god, churches and individual christians reach out and show gods compassion to gods children (and we ALL are) whoever they are and be jesus with skin on to them.

    If we treat divorce the same as this we would be seen (correctly) as idiots out of touch with what happens to real people.(bear in mind 50% of christian marriages fail ,the same as others – this is a much bigger problem as at best the population is 5% gay and by definition very few identify as christian (first take the log..)

    In short I thought it was a disgrace for a pastor to disrespect the prime minister of our country (joining a very long queue), attack him for his beliefs and then question whether he was a christian because of it, despite his deep consideration and writing on this. Respect for others is taught to preschoolers this just looked like bigotry. Bear in mind the Anglican church globally is confilcted on this. Just remember he does go to church each sunday unlike many others in politics including our new PM.

    It just confirms everything the world thinks of us and degrades the great work that people like you do.

    Judge not that you be not judged and the greatest of these is love.

    Gods Compassion not condemation is the key

    Love your work Bernie and completely understand what your doing to help people understand and the explanation of what Kevin was alluding to was good.

    • Thank you for the that reply. I am gay. I love God. People can dispute that if they like, but they speak from ignorance. I have a great relationship with God, he knows my heart. You are right…..despite the church’s position and how they treat gay people, I have remained and will remain because I know where I stand with God. However, I know many gay people who want nothing to do with God or Christianity because of how the so-called “Christians” have treated them. They will pay a high price one day when they stand before God in all their righteousness, and I pray they are forgiven. Didn’t Jesus say..”Love your neighbor as yourself.” If people can do this and this alone, the world would be a better place. Please Church….start winning souls for Christ and stop chasing them away………………..

  17. mmm… I’m excited!!!… really looking forward to what you have to say next Berni…

    just my 2cents worth for now…

    I do not see a point on this post, are we trying to reason? are we trying to explain our beliefs? are we trying to share why homosexuality is a sin?

    Are we trying to explain God’s word and his authority to people who do not know God?
    Been there, done that…, total waste of time…
    We live in a secular society, and have secular governments and education.
    There is no longer truth or false, but 50 shades of grey…

    I LOVE what nanniecarole said..”We do not fear God that’s simply the truth. It’s about Him not about us . We live in a society that thinks its all about us fools”

    For those who believe in God, let’s see what God thinks, not you or me what we think, but what GOD THINKS about it…

    Leviticus 18:22
    Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
    Leviticus 20:13
    If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    What has God done to cities who did this and other sins?
    let’s see…
    Genesis 19:24
    Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah–from the LORD out of the heavens.

    There is nothing worse than to provoke a God who is slow to anger to become angry…, we then wonder why God sometimes punishes us with earthquakes, tsunamis, and mortal diseases.

    in a slightly non-related topic… check this out…
    Evolution vs GOD.

  18. I could easily say about myself that I was born to love porn. Ever since I first found my stepfathers mag under the bed it has been a battle. Maybe one day they can look for a genetic predisposition to hardcore porn and then I will know that the bibles condemnation of lust does not apply to me. The appeals to genetic links in sexual preference are so common now, they have blurred the line between fact and fiction in most peoples minds, but let God be true and every man a liar. At the end of the day I believe that all moral delusions are a result of ‘not choosing to love the truth’. I believe that anyone who cultivates a love of the truth will end up finding Jesus Christ, or vice versa. He is the end of all truth.

  19. Looking forward to your next blog Bernie. Have been wrestling with this issue for a while. Was bought up in a church where homosexuality was a definite no no. It is so difficult to change our mindset on early teachings and impressions.

    However I do sympathize with homosexuals who are born with a natural instinct to be attracted to someone of the same sex (and I don’t believe all homosexuals are born this way – I think it has become a fashionable trend to try out for some). It must be a difficult life always feeling different (especially through adolecence) and fighting those feelings or being classed a sinner.

    I suppose we are all born sinners each with our own sins to battle. And all these sins grieve God.

    Anyway Bernie looking forward to your take on this.

    • Homosexuals may claim they were born that way but most probably they grew up in a home with either a weak or absent father or were molested as a child. Joseph Nicolosi, a counsellor in this area says, “I have spoken with hundreds of homosexual men. Perhaps there are exceptions, but I have never met a single homosexual man who said he had a close, loving, and respectful relationship with his father.” (‘A Parent’s Guide to Preventing Homosexuality’ (Downers Grove,Ill: InterVarsity Press, 2002), p 31.

  20. We do not fear God that’s simply the truth. It’s about Him not about us . We live in a society that thinks its all about us fools

  21. I think we are leaving in a very selfish world where every one just think of only themselves , only ther pleasure, only there interest & just think about ourselves and this is all happening because of this selfishness.

  22. Yes, the bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is wrong but western culture has been trained to “dismiss” the bible now days. I will concede this, if your sole argument is simply “the bible says so” then you should ignored. Now to be clear I believe homosexuality is wrong and I’m not (and will not be) persuaded otherwise.
    When I argue against homosexuality I say “The bible says its wrong and let me show you why”.
    At this point I don’t go in to the scriptures and dredge up the well known passages demonstrating this, I start demonstrating the known facts about homosexuality such as:
    Every culture that has fully embraced homosexuality has self-destructed, organisations like the CDC have demonstrated that not only high rates of infections from STD’s and each year make up more than half the new AIDS & syphilis cases (remember the account as being in a 6% part of the population), homosexuals are twice more likely to develop various cancers (relating to their sexual acts) then heterosexuals, male homosexuals suffer more “damage” in relation to their intercourse and homosexuals (especially sexually active teenagers) are more likely to commit suicide (They counter argue that’s because of oppression but a quick refute shows that suicide rates in the homosexual movement in “accepting” countries as well). But wait their’s still more…
    When people claim its about “love” I point out that in the homosexual community there is no such thing as long term relationship, especially among the men. Statistics consistently reveal that homosexuals are extremely promiscuous having more sexual partners then most “loose” heterosexuals. A long term homosexual relation (especially among males) is the exception and not the rule. This is also reflected in the statistics that no only do so few homosexuals get married in countries that have same sex marriage and divorce rates for the homosexual community are so much higher than the heterosexuals.
    Finally there’s the “Born that way” argument. There’s no scientific proof anyone is born that way, if someone is born with the “gay-gene” it would also stand to reason there could be an “anti-gay-gene” (is gay bashing acceptable?), there’s possible genetic links to obesity and alcohol abuse (do we accept obesity or alcoholics?). AND MY FAVORITE most arguments for “born that way” are also used by the pedophiles to justify their behavior (when they deny it works that way you simply point out the written links between homosexuality and pedophilia by homosexuals).
    Now remember that I’m not using the bible to “confirm” my position and using outside evidences to demonstrate why the bible holds that position. Now even though I have outside evidence and arguments to back up my position I’m still labeled a bigot and homophobic. That tells me that there is more to this then meets the eye.

    Sorry for the long post to you blog but I just wanted to demonstrate how easy it should be to challenge the LGBT lobby if we have the conviction. There are some good books on the subject “A Queer Thing Happened To America” and “Correct, Not Politically Correct” are good places to start

    • Well said Stephen. Thank you for the books on this subject.

    • You are completely right. Looking for the gay gene is using science to justify a liberal agenda. The sad thing is that if someone has repented of all sin except homosexual acts, then they cannot have the Holy Spirit living in them and they are not God’s. If they had the Holy Spirit living in them then he would convict them that their behavior is wrong.
      To me the position that you take on the homosexual issue demonstrates whether you belong to the world, and the wisdom thereof or to Jesus Christ.

    • I can only say you speak from ignorance. You have no idea what it is to have a same sex attraction from your earliest recollection and never to have an attraction to the opposite sex. Because of this, should one live a loveless life alone? It was never a choice…..but all that I ever knew. And no I did not grow up in a broken home , nor was I molested or anything else, and have two brothers that are heterosexual, and we were all raised the same. So please, in your infinite wisdom, explain to me how I should manage my life. Shall I take a wife when my innermost being has no desire whatsoever…just to please you and others who think as you do? Or shall I be true to myself and what I know to be innate feelings? Walk in my shoes..and then get back with me. Thank you.

  23. I like what Millard Erickson says about biblical interpretation. When the bible has different views on the same subject throughout the bible we have something that needs to be understood in a cultural context. The role of women is good here where you have biblical women leaders while in a particular context Paul commands them to be quiet. Whereas, when the bible has only one view on an idea you have a biblical principle. The issue of homosexuality seems to sit well here, the bible has only one voice on the subject, it only condemns it, remembering also that the bible sets this in the context of love meaning God’s heart is always what is best for us even when its not what we want or desire.

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